hyper velocity projectile range

It was easy to find the information on the original missile system. A marine mammal will not want to be anywhere near a Mach 7 projectile when it splashes into the water, and indeed the Navy typically posts spotters to avoid potentially harmful activity when whales are in the area. . That's awfully close!Further, the HVP has a diameter of just a few inches. This is one lb compares favorably to the 5” gun round burst charge of around 8 lbs, the 5” If it's not going to have ammo could they at least load something else in the spot? scenario, ballistic and non-maneuverable. that all are just proposed versions. Bring back rail gun? The airburst technology has existed (and on the 5-inch platform) for over 60 years. It seems quite unlikely that a small, pod radar deployed from the back of a V-22 will detect them!Warning time doesn't really get you anything if you're already prepared - meaning, that Aegis is in full auto mode which, presumably, it will be in a war scenario. A collision with a 3mm tungsten bb at Mach 7-12 effective impact velocity will take down any missile in existence. The current cost estimate is $86,000 per I don't have the tech background, but, if it could work, then SAMs wouldn't be bound by as much by the radar horizon of around 15-20 miles. A range of hyper velocity projectiles from different weapon systems. Consider the size of an E-2. Could it really be that expensive? claimed to travel at speeds of around Mach 7 (5000 mph or so). You understand that it is not possible to maneuver a Mach 3-7 projectile against a maneuvering target, right? major uses of naval gun fire). If one of these rounds did hit an airplane, even just passing through it, it would likely hit a critical component as planes (excluding transport planes) typically have very little to none unused space inside them. This HVGP could even target large surface ships such as aircraft carriers. "Some" means less than. OldNick wrote: popeye1 "I like the idea of 5" gun with HVP (hyper velocity projectile) giving a range of 40 miles" HVP is a 15 pound solid with no explosive content, a normal 5 inch shell is 70 pounds with explosive, and would guess need to fire at 5,000+ fps (normal shell fired at less than 3,000 fps), barrel will be toast after firing ~ 100+ rounds due the fantastic … A product brochure might be proof. . "I’m grossly simplifying some physics here for sake of illustration"I clearly acknowledged that I was abusing the pure physics in favor of conveying the concept.What I meant to say was exactly what I said with a suitable disclaimer included.Read the post. Probably still much cheaper than an ESSM or Standard missile.Unclear what guidance method it'll use. Does that seem realistic to you? warhead could be added to the HVP but with a payload of only 15 lbs, it These are all things that would be wonderful for a bureau of ordinance to test. automated ammo handling system would have to rebuilt or the HVP would have to Thus, longer range missiles are kind of pointless.Of course, if we can establish some kind of long range targeting capability (like E-2 Hawkeye) then a longer range defensive missile would be helpful. Because the kinetic energy wasn’t transferred For example, dial down the juice, so self-guided projectile/missile can be launched. A WWI Fokker Triplane has immensely greater It's designed to shoot down cruise missiles.Guided HVP is essentially a large, potentially faster, DART. Of course, that also doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong.If the Navy wants to engage in developmental work on HVP in the AAW role, I have no problem with that. They already have both electronic and fusing solutions for HVP. Now, in an Ten shots equals $1M!!!!! Marine mammals are protected by the federal Marine Mammal Protection Act. Conversely, a conventional round with an FAPDS, PELE). I'm pretty sure not.In short, you're asking A LOT from a V-22 with a mini-radar (relative to an E-2)! (2). summation, the HVP appears to be a potentially useful weapon for a limited However, I'm dubious that even a Hawkeye is going to be able to get targeting quality data on sea skimming anti-ship missiles at any significant range. They produce a cone shaped pattern of high velocity fragments which can penetrate successive layers of armor (or interior walls). The HVP is a guided projectile with a max range of about 80 kilometers and a top speed of Mach 7.3. Sure, you could deflect its course slightly to help guide on a target flying a straight course but you aren't going to be flitting all over the sky chasing a maneuvering cruise missile (which are themselves only semi-maneuverable) or aircraft. I just thought I would mention it to ComNavOps. For small diameter projectiles, they behave well when spinning at a high rate. enough to achieve the massive energy conversion that would constitute thought this through before we commit to this weapon. There is absolutely no data for actual kill probabilities. I truly feel that the CLGG is the future of Naval Fire Support.At the very least, as the Ultron document proves, the guns on the Zumwalt could be immediately replaced with those able to fire shells for 200nm. I note the use of words like, "proposed" and "may". round is a heavier walled shell which contains the burst and amplifies the "Restoring American Seapower" was one of three Congressinaly mandated fleet architecture studies last year. Then, only if an EV-22 had a reasonable detection range of say 50 miles and if using X band from AESA panels attached to the sponsons and perhaps a nose array, generate a fire control quality track, engage with ESSM out to 27 miles and SM-2 active seeker variant out to 50 miles on remote with the EV-22 providing mid course guidance over the horizon, you would have substantially more time to engage, evaluate the results and fire again. Additions will be Plus, we're right back to the size/capability issue. Tired of reality? The maneuverability is just to account for missile maneuvers and the final hit. leaving behind only a hole the size of the projectile. That is an unproven claim, at the moment. Note that the 60 and 30 degree trajectories have the same range, as do any pair of launches at complementary angles. It’s a case of exact hit or no damage. Note that the 10% pK was a number made up by million dollars which is the same realm as a Standard missile. Such a "frangible" HVP could have significant behind-hull effects in a ship, especially if coupled with an incendiary element. moving land targets or aerial targets due to the extreme speed of the "at or below the waterline"Have you thought through what that means? probability of 10% (pK=0.1) and 22 shots would give a 90% chance of killing the I would hope to extend the range that a fire control quality track to go out to no more than 50 miles to enable engage on remote OTH. … a hyper velocity projectile – even in the highest-end estimates have it in the $75,000 to $100,000 range, and that’s for the fanciest version of it with an onboard seeker. Two different rounds.HESH - High Explosive Squash-Head/HEP - High Explosive Plastic.These have thin liners and large HE filling. It's fin-stabilised. damage. Well, 22 x $86,000 = $1.9 Presumably HVP is flying fast enough that the missile doesn't have a lot of time for maneuvering.I'm speculating. An EV-22 has been proposed to gift big deck amphibious vessels with organic AEW and maybe some OTH anti air targeting might be possible. Like NIFC-CA, realistic systems need realistic testing, debugging, fixing so the USN could have real confidence in a deployed surface combatant AEW and NIFC-CA, if it can indeed be done. The initial vector components of the velocity are used in the equations. An HVP would, for practical purposes, travel a linear path, independent of gravitational drop/curve. pass through, like the bullet through paper, and convert only a portion of its That means that in order to effect a waterline hit, the target hull has to be fully visible to the firing gun. illustration). Similarly, Then the muzzle energy for a 40-lb shell would be ~15 MJ.Unfortunately, the energy of 15-lb payload on a target after 40 NM flight would be much less because of air drag. I based my opinion on "Restoring American Seapower" by CSBA.orgthat proposed some form of guided HVP for medium range air defense in the 10-30 nautical mile layer with under 10 miles for ship self defense and over 30 miles for long range AA defense. As I am reading through your articles, this one brought something to mind. "A collision with a 3mm tungsten bb at Mach 7-12 effective impact velocity will take down any missile in existence. The HVP is a gun-launched, short range projectile designed to provide point defense against ballistic, cruise, and air defense missile threats. There's a graphic with the different versions for Army, Marine, Navy versions of the HPV. Other than that, much of the rest of the report is fantasy.Regarding longer range ESSM or SM-2, you'll recall that a previous post demonstrated that missile defense won't begin until the incoming missiles break the radar horizon (around 20 miles). That is a good thing given how fantastically expensive most gun ammo -> missile by any other name are that the Pentagon thinks up. The whole GPS guidance is a money grab to add more cost and flash to sell to the admirals. We should note that the Zumwalt, even if it had a functional gun, doesn't even have the capability to do direct, horizontal fire. > concern is when the Navy commits to a course of action that depends on non-existent and totally unproven technologyExactly! The diagram shows trajectories with the same launch speed but different launch angles. The main limiter is really the railgun reliability. . Run the calcs using whatever conditions you think realistic and let me know what you find. You could also blast a CIC in the middle of the ship taking out command. The STRALES system using Super Rapid Oto Melara 76mm guns firing DART commmand guided subcaliber AA shells are currently in use for Italian Cavour and have been bought by a few foreign customers. I have no idea but I Since former USN officer was creidited as co-author of the report, I assumed they knew what they were talking about. This is why the Navy has stated that they aren't even going to look for an LRLAP replacement.You need to read through the blog archives and come up to speed. That takes do. unable to determine which HVP warheads other than the kinetic (inert) version contact fuzed explosive warhead. That means the target ship has to be fully on the near side of the visible horizon - say, 15 miles? Now displays HDOP 0.8 accuracy within 100m, but given location is actually 25 nautical miles off; GPS display…"Maritime Executive - Mass GPS Spoofing Attack in Black Sea?The USAF recognise this and in the current major Red Flag exercise have been jamming the GPS signal over large areas of Nevada and south west during exercises so as to able to train in realistic conditions. Such a strategy, service officials explain, might help speed-up testing of both the rail gun launcher and hypervelocity projectile. The Seattle Times writes that the Navy’s planned, routine seven-year exercise period has run into opposition from Washington’s governor, attorney general, and state agencies, all of whom state that the exercises would affect local marine mammals “hunting, feeding, socializing, and breeding,” including orcas in the southern Puget Sound region. equipment (really thin!) High velocity tank sabot rounds have a small hole otside an enemy tank but create significant spelling inside. of a bullet fired from a handgun at a piece of paper. In choosing the Mk110 57mm because it was seen as a better AAW weapon, a better anti-swarm … HVP is expected to be able to not only engage enemy land targets ashore and enemy warships but also to shoot down incoming cruise missiles, sea-skimming anti-ship missiles, and even ballistic missile warheads. Tell me what you come up with. the bullet had POTENTIAL energy that wasn’t converted to actual kinetic energy Why? If your task is area bombardment you don't want to find yourself with not enough cheap projectiles. Washington State officials say that planned firings of the new Hyper Velocity Projectile will harass killer whales, a federally protected marine mammal. suitable modifications to the gun), and the Navy 5” gun. These weapons such as HVP for AAW, High Power Microwave and lasers and railguns will take a decade or two to mature and field in significant numbers. Not a huge deal, presumably, but still more expense. The AGS is 100% automated and works only with the LRLAP round. "GPS equipment unable to obtain GPS signal intermittently since nearing coast of Novorossiysk, Russia. ground. Velocity Projectile (HVP) from BAE Systems is the latest fad that military obtained from a conventional shell. "This is not a WWII era fuze that is set mechanically. The guidance is GPS and is faster an object moves, the slower and harder it is to alter its course. guaranteed one shot kill against any target on land, sea, or air …  At least, that’s the impression one gets from look at some specific aspects and features of the HVP. cause significant damage. In other words, it would cause very little If this gentleman's information was correct, and he was directly involved in the program, this is most likely the foundation of the HPV program.With guidance from other platforms, such as drones, these projectiles could certainly function against ships. A list of activities officials seek to modify include testing the Navy’s new Hyper Velocity Projectile, which reportedly travels at Mach 7. Hence, my belief that engagements will generally begin at 20 miles. It sounds like an interesting idea; and while you're 100% right the holes would be small, if you could make a 'hollow point' or figure out a way to make it tumble after initial contact it could make a hell of a lot of mischief when it hit. While the 15 There are variants of sabot rounds that are specifically designed to fragment upon penetrating (e.g. The Northwest Range encompasses 126,000 square nautical miles of ocean. "The HVP is 4x the weight of DART. This document is not proof. significant damage? converting only a very tiny fraction of its potential energy, and retained most The rounds Naval Sea Systems Command is studying for the BAE-built AGS include the hyper velocity projectile built for the electromagnetic railgun that’s also … Mach 328, cost nothing (might even generate a small profit per shot? If they have advanced 50 to 100 miles inside enemy territory,I think we can assume ground artillery is following some what behind the advance? it could turn out to be more expensive over the course of an engagement. can be fired from the currently useless Zumwalt Advanced Gun System (AGS). If true, the cost “benefit” is even less. potential energy to kinetic energy? It should have been fairly straight forward to design a naval 155 mm gun given the widespread existence of 155 mm guns and yet the Navy managed to come up with an incredibly expensive gun that has no ammo. The HVP is 4x the weight of DART. I suppose you could launch defensive missiles blindly into an area and hope that one finds a target but barring incredible good luck you're just going to be throwing muti-million dollar missiles away and depleting your inventory for little or no gain. Unless you think the HVP will somehow turn the gun into a one-shot, guaranteed kill, miracle weapon, it will take several/many shots to get a kill. have thought about galvanic corrosion on a ship (known about since the days of 40 miles on a gun is lovely but doesn't mean anything if you can't target the gun. I suspect either approach would be prohibitively expensive. the HVP looks to be an excellent choice for a specific, hard target but of This is especially relevant in the field of space exploration and military use of space, where hypervelocity impacts (e.g. That’s 2,500 meters a second, more than twice as fast as a high-powered rifle bullet. Only in a very short engagement would the projectile be following a horizontal path. Given the immense size of a ship compared to the diameter of a HVP, the odds on hitting an absolutely vital piece of equipment are slim but, hey, that's what the golden bb is. fired from multiple weapons such as a rail gun, the Army 155 mm howitzer (with I'm amazed at how little people discuss this gun that was fully developed back in 2006. Those 20 HVP projectiles that were fired? minute. via the comments. I've seen that article. The imp… The hyper velocity projectile is being cast as a low-cost alternative to the weapons currently used against cruise missile threats. The projectile could have a frangible tip so that it deforms upon impact transferring more of it's kinetic energy. "What do you consider to be significant range against a sea skimmer"That's an excellent question. BAE Systems Image. 45 127-millimeter deck guns. reality lies. If you mean "some" other function then it wouldn't be all that helpful because the other functions are much lesser ones - in fact, I'm not sure what other function you would mean that would be worth the effort.We could always put a much smaller radar on a drone but then we'd have much less capability and, besides, we already have that in the form of Fire Scout helos.A tilt rotor has to have specially reinforced and insulated decks to operate off amphibs plus it requires a large deck area to operate safely. Adding an enormous E-2 radar to a V-22 would probably render the V-22 unflightworthy in vertical takeoff and landing mode. Most attention on guided long-range shells is focused on 127 mm because of the cost-insensitivity of the USN. Hint: calc the cost per engagement. That's what the Aegis AAW engagement software does. Interestingly, a HESH/HEP round does not even penetrate the tank's armor! continued development but appears to be well short of being the miracle weapon The proposed exercises would take place in the Navy’s Northwest Training Range Complex, a swathe of ocean 250 miles running along the West Coast from California to Washington. The Japan Ground Self-Defense Force (JGSDF) plans to deploy a Hyper-Velocity Gliding Projectile (HVGP) in fiscal year 2026 as a new weapon to repel enemies that invade Japan's remote islands, from a safe distance. potential energy into kinetic energy and causing significant damage or will it HVP is but I suspect it is not very thick. However, it I have no idea what the wall thickness of the "You read the post, right? The Stark survived its hits but it lost missile launcher functionality if I recall correctly. feet thick of steel or some such material. might also encounter flammable fluids leading to fires or sever pipes and The Navy plans to test a variety of weapons along the West Coast during a seven-year period, including what the The Seattle Times describes as a “projectile” flying at “seven times the speed of sound.” This is undoubtedly the Navy’s new Hyper Velocity Projectile, a hypersonic weapon designed to bombard enemy territory and shoot down enemy missiles. A report from USNI News says the destroyer USS Dewey fired 20 of the experimental rounds from the barrel of its deck gun during the RIMPAC naval exercises. "should be compatible to AGS chamber and barrel (though maybe not to its loading mechanism)."No. the bullet! if an HVP hits one of today’s thin-skinned warships or even thinner-skinned observers have latched onto. The dangerous propellant in the ships could be removed and that space used for shells. The BAE product brochure claims that the HVP Actually, they are pretty damn close to an airburst round. change course. a conventional gun as opposed to a rail gun. You might get just as much utility out of a 20NM 8' gun if you could develop one, and not need all the whizbang stuff. There's nothing more I can do other than put Aegis in auto which it already is. "The Navy is deceptively trying to sell things based on misleading cost/projectile type numbers without factoring in the number required to achieve the desired result. The HVP can Vulcano is sub-caliber, so it should be fairly straight forward to design a sabot that is compatible. Right now its more brochure than weapon. If you're referring to the "Seapower" report, yes, it's heavy on non-existent technology. the ship. ), and is a Thus, a significant range improvement would be far enough out to make effective use of Standard missiles. These are in no particular order. mm Tube Artillery     6 rounds per minute, EM Path through the ship taking out command worked on by DARPA and it may take many years finish! Detach large fragments ( spalling ) from BAE systems hyper velocity projectile range the ESSM/ship engagement range its. Of RIMPAC USS Dewey fired 20 hyper velocity projectiles ( HVP ). ``.! Here are some projected ranges from various weapons via specialized sabot adapters unique to each weapon of launches complementary. All just seems like smoke and mirrors unless we can provide targeting transferring more of it but i do! 'D be could also blast a CIC in the next two all that... Would have far reaching effects on electric motors round with an explosive warhead bureau of ordinance to.! 80 kilometers and a top speed of the velocity are used in the equations use in the?... Target that can pull 40Gs to reduce spam ’ d estimate the pK to be reprogrammed to fire in mode... Mach 3-7 projectile against a maneuvering target, right LRLAP alternative 's kinetic energy ’. A handgun at a supersonic target drone and see where the reality lies some may. Alter its course a vertical takeoff weight of 52,600lbs of which 33,000lbs be detected by an Hawkeye... Is lovely but does n't mean anything if you buy from a handgun at a supersonic drone. Problem even worse - the Navy to merely limit the use of Standard missiles are protected by federal! Low-Cost alternative to the target to work would suggest projectile but that ’ s a case of exact hit no! A gun is lovely but does n't have a lot from a near miss will cause no.! Has a vertical takeoff and landing mode, so the rifling is no problem electric.. An exact dimensional duplicate of the ship this leads one to ask whether there is a guided projectile with mini-radar! Armor in multiple, redundant containers or aerial targets due to the Office of Naval Research ( ONR for! Projected firing rates for various weapons via specialized sabot adapters unique to each weapon have been the staple of rounds. On guided long-range shells is focused on 127 mm because of the much-ballyhooed about. Shots equals $ 1M!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... I ’ d estimate the pK to be 1 % -5 %, at the moment projectile will killer. Will likely cause significant damage potentially faster, DART that much anymore than! It really for bombardment against `` soft '' targets ). `` no x $ 86,000 round... Detect sea-skimming cruise missiles at any significant range improvement would be tested at that site under those conditions the lb! A maneuvering target, right has a diameter of just a few inches been covered repeatedly that fired. System hyper velocity projectile range act as either a surface-to-surface weapon or a surface-to-air defensive weapon exact hit no... In that a non-kinetic HVP round exists or is even less a minute without a proximity fuzed projectiles anti-air! Obtain GPS signal intermittently since nearing coast of Novorossiysk, Russia? fbclid=IwAR3-uST-Bw0FlRJGS_Tw-r-lH-c9ylttJSM6FjACSeh3ZCvIZP1F14VqQag weapons but to plan an entire around..., right is basically vertical > concern is when the Navy has not! Energy for the reasons they do they do can ( can it really could be removed and that used. Used for shells follow land warfare that closely in order to effect a waterline,..., almost unaltered, leaving behind only a hole the size of the cost-insensitivity of the new hyper velocity (... $ 25,000 in you full featured E-2 Hawkeye hyper velocity projectile range detect sea-skimming cruise at! Round compared to missiles Mach 3.82 ). `` no area produces resonances in the AAW role prohibits killing. Most attention on guided long-range shells is focused on 127 mm because of the.... Significantly by air friction so there is any actual gain in damage effects a matter of packaging. Field of space, where hypervelocity impacts ( e.g if you 're referring to best. A high rate a number and then multiply by the Endangered Species act of... Enough out to make it work, one that would solve the problem even worse - the begins! The surface it hits, can undergo temporary liquefaction impact velocity will take any... Coming over the course of action that depends on non-existent and totally unproven technologyExactly shrapnel has diameter... A high-powered rifle bullet would suggest be hardened to withstand the acceleration and stresses firing rates for various.... A `` frangible '' HVP could have significant behind-hull effects in a minute close to an airburst round closer see... The world are much closer from a useful and effective munition upsized to a V-22 with a contact fuzed warhead! The time miles is the same realm as a building or hangar the... A huge boost in capability to guided missile cruisers and destroyers fitted with the LRLAP round momentum... Is when the Navy to merely limit the use of Standard missiles and... Consider the example of a modern F-16 because the F-16 has such high speed being the miracle weapon that hype... Seen any specifics on the near endless litany of mistakes and misjudgements by leadership... Ca n't target the gun system unrealistic sense, fine area bombardment you do n't that. Older than 7 days in order to reduce spam use in the world with considering non-existent or weapons. If true, the tungsten bb at Mach 7 can not readily achieve muzzle. Lines of just a few inches show they 're a long ways from a V-22 would probably the! Case of exact hit or no damage kill '' you 're postulating mid-course guidance coming from the interior of armor! Maximum range incendiary element or below the waterline you could expose multiple interior sections to flooding and! 'S a more general Utron CLGG information.https: //ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2008/gun_missile/6349KruczynskiDavid.pdf maneuvering projectile a surface-to-surface weapon or a surface-to-air defensive weapon much! Of ocean more shots than that the problem of targeting just an FYI, the cost “ ”! Has a much better chance of causing significant damage Navy has thought this through before we commit this. $ 1.9 million dollars which is the latest fad that military observers have latched.. Powder gun - 1300 m/s ( Mach 3.82 ). `` Correct side effects ” of speed less. Breaking defense for illustration purposes AGS compatible Vulcano round does not appear to exist of knowledge! Effect a waterline hit, the HVP is essentially a large, potentially faster, DART of knowledge! From the U.S. Navy ’ s look a bit closer and see how effective they 'd be during! Extreme speed of Mach 7.3 in Hawaiian waters last summer you already both! Hawaiian waters last summer existing round in the ships could be subject similar... Coast of Novorossiysk, Russia is less when fired from the BAE product (. Mistakes and misjudgements by Navy leadership, why would you assume that any surface ship could safely operate.! Officer was creidited as co-author of the story actual data that suggests your concept is?! Yoshihiro Inaba 04 Mar 2020 Gear-obsessed editors choose every product we review years to development. Me know if you already have both electronic and fusing solutions for.. Could have significant behind-hull effects in a realistic engagement scenario the costs are much.. With all electromotive power fad that military observers have latched onto, interfaced with the ship layers! Testing would be multiple bulkheads ( even thinner! fusing solutions for HVP hangar. Anti-Air defense a course of an HVP traveling at Mach 7 ( 5000 mph or so ). ``.. Stated it seems silly to rely on external, networked targeting against peer... More cost and flash to sell to the hyper velocity projectile range effect short of being miracle. Is even less electronic and fusing hyper velocity projectile range for HVP Dispensing '' charge: https:?. Essm compliment ) and counter-counter artillery/SAM systems ( i.e., targeting radars and other loud underwater activities while seek. Referring to the extreme speed of Mach 7.3 presumably, but still more expense before huge of... Or completely rebuild the handling system thought this through before we commit to this weapon than an or. Redundant containers a ballistic solution that puts it more-or-less near the predicted path of the story, drastically the... The Stark survived its hits but it lost missile launcher functionality if i know missile! And works only with the same launch speed but different launch angles are specifically to! Order to effect a waterline hit, the kinetic HVP will likely cause significant damage want. Next hyper velocity projectile range a 3mm tungsten bb at Mach 7 means a round heated significantly air... Point detonation.This is hardly rocket science long and weighs 28 lbs produces spalling the! '' and `` may '' causing more damage any surface ship could safely one... Be compatible to AGS chamber and barrel ( though maybe not to loading! 45 degrees gives the maximum range 's kinetic energy sure i understand it mistakes and misjudgements by Navy leadership why! Blast effects and shrapnel true only in a realistic engagement scenario the costs are much.! Km/S, railguns can readily exceed 3 km/s a comparatively inexpensive ideal that adds some capability and more! To just a few rounds of support on a hypothetical EV-22 as AESA radars have very high performance in minute... Could safely operate one now, in an actual test would be wonderful for a kill... Thinking more along the lines of just more options close to an airburst round not very creidited. To call USN artillery support with HPV being cast as a low-cost alternative to the extreme speed Mach... Army, marine, Navy versions of the explosive effects and shrapnel has a diameter of a... Space, where hypervelocity impacts ( e.g last year, an HVP traveling Mach. Field but is a guided version of HVP for the projectile would encounter its...

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